Curse

Balky · Nov 12, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth;

Splinter weapon isn't overrated, but having it on a ranger's bar is. If you are casting splinter weapon on recharge you effectively lose all 3 pips of ranger energy regeneration, meaning you are quickly running into a deficient if you are also using interrupts/support skills constantly (and you should be). At the same time a ritualist can cast a splinter weapon which is 2 to 3 times more powerful and at the same time has energy left over to power a very respectable amount of defence through restoration.

Now, onto the sundering vs everything else discussion.

Vampiric gives +5 damage. Assuming a bow have +15% from weapon mods and +20% customization bonus, the bow will deal about 29.66 damage average.

Now, against a 60 armor opponent Vampiric will give about a 16% damage increase over base damage. 20% armor penetration = 12 armor loss, which equates to about a 23% increase in damage. But wait, it only happens 1/5th of the time, so the average damage increase is only 4.6%. This brings sundering to about 1.3 extra damage per attack. Vampiric damage of 5 > 1.3 sundering damage

Surely armor penetration works better against higher armors though, right? Lets take warrior armor, 100 AL. At this point you reduce the enemy armor by 20. Thats a 41% damage increase! OMFG! But wait, the damage increase applies only to the arrow base damage. Since the base damage is only 14.83 (100 armor = half damage compared to 60 armor), your total damage increase is still only 14.83 base damage * .41 armor modification * 1/5 chance of sundering working = 1.2 extra damage per attack. Meanwhile the armor ignoring vampiric is still plugging away at 5 extra damage per attack.

Now, hornbow vs others is even easier. Hornbows have 10% armor penetration. That means vs AL 60 they improve damage by about 10% and against AL 100 they improve by about 18%. Meanwhile shortbows and flatbows fire arrows 35% faster, dealing 35% more damage. The only time a hornbow is good is when a ranger is spiking.

Sundering sucks. It sucks even worse on the second lowest base damage weapon of the game, and it sucks enormously more when you are giving yourself a decreased attack speed to get it. Would you still like to debate the rest of your stupid ideas now?

Yes, a shortbow and a flatbow have a faster fire rate than a hornbow, 2 secs to 2.7 ...the flatbow also has a higher flight time due to a higher arc... 0.88 secs to 0.59 so your theory that its 35% faster is wrong when taking flight time into consideration as you have to, also as the hornbow has the inbuilt armour pen, it will do more damage, in addition to that;

Armor Penetration

Armor Penetration is incredibly straightforward - it simply allows you to ignore the listed percentage of the target's total defense. If a given attack has 10% armor penetration and the target has an armor level of 100, he will only have an armor rating of 90 for the purposes of defending against this attack. Thus the armor penetration equation:

[Armor Rating] = [Armor Level] × (1 - [Armor Penetration] / 100)

To give you an idea of how this works, here's a piece of the armor effectiveness table, adjusted for various levels of Armor Penetration:
Effect of Armor Penetration Armor Level 0% Penetration 5% Penetration 10% Penetration 25% Penetration 50% Penetration
40 141% 146% 152% 168% 200%
50 119% 124% 130% 148% 183%
60 100% 105% 111% 130% 168%
70 84.1% 89.3% 94.9% 114% 154%
80 70.7% 75.8% 81.2% 100% 141%
90 59.5% 64.3% 69.5% 87.8% 130%
100 50% 54.5% 59.5% 77.1% 119%

So the 30 damage attack from the previous examples dealt 11.6 damage to a well-defended Warrior, that same attack with 50% armor penetration would deal:

30 × 2^(( 60 - (80 + 20 + 15) × (1 - (50 / 100)) ) / 40) = 31.3 damage

If you're having trouble taking down a target with an exceptional armor rating, attacks with armor penetration are exactly what you're looking for.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 12, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I've never run out of energy splinter barraging. And when I put it on a hero's bar it never gets casted quick enough. I just like having control of splinter weapon myself and leaving a space for a skill on my hero's bar.

I use an Ironwing Flatbow and Droknar's Recurve bow mainly.

Amy Awien · Nov 12, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

the flatbow also has a higher flight time due to a higher arc... 0.88 secs to 0.59 so your theory that its 35% faster is wrong ...

No, you're wrong, the flatbow fires every 2 seconds, independent of the flight time.

Quote:

... that same attack with 50% armor penetration ...

Hornbow adds 10%, not 50.

Fay Vert · Nov 13, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

If you're having trouble taking down a target with an exceptional armor rating, attacks with armor penetration are exactly what you're looking for.

No, Armour ignoring is what you are looking for.

The Meth · Nov 13, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

So the 30 damage attack from the previous examples dealt 11.6 damage to a well-defended Warrior, that same attack with 50% armor penetration would deal:

30 × 2^(( 60 - (80 + 20 + 15) × (1 - (50 / 100)) ) / 40) = 31.3 damage

If you're having trouble taking down a target with an exceptional armor rating, attacks with armor penetration are exactly what you're looking for.

So instead of using a weapon with 20% chance of 20% armor penetration, you will use a weapon with 100% chance of 50% penetration? Well, that weapon mod is 12.5x stronger then what actually exists in game, so if we compared that to a vampiric mod that was 12.5x stronger vampiric would be stealing 62.5 health per hit. Isn't it great how awesome our weapons are with these mythical mods? Armor penetration actually becomes less effective as armor goes up, because you have to remember that it modifies the BASE damage, which is going down as armor goes up.

Bow Arc has nothing to do with DPS btw. Again, you played 3.5 years and still didn't figure that out? Considering how slowly you learn things I must assume you were held back a few years in school.

byteme! · Nov 13, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

that same attack with 50% armor penetration would deal:

30 × 2^(( 60 - (80 + 20 + 15) × (1 - (50 / 100)) ) / 40) = 31.3 damage

Wait a minute!!!!! You have a weapon that can do "50%" armor penetration!!???? I've played 40-42 months (can't remember) and I've missed out on this important piece of info? Where the hell do I sign up?

Btw you want "Armor Ignoring dmg" not more "Armor Penetration dmg". Armor Ignoring > Your imaginary bow

gw_poster · Nov 13, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

please don't say after 3 1/2 years ur using a sundering hornbow with BHA on ur bar...?? Unless ur target is an immovable rock, chances are you would never hit anything. High arc + high arc = dodge city. Meth has broken it down, u can't really refute those arguments.

Balky · Nov 13, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I suggest some of you learn to read, and use a certain thing called Wiki !!! I`m sure they`ll be interested to learn of your re-working of the game mechanics.

Orange Milk · Nov 13, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Below I have posted a pic of the Imaginary Super Bow:

Sure is pretty, huh? I wish I had one (sad face)

byteme! · Nov 13, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Wiki is not written by the all seeing eye. It is written by normal people. Therefore it isn't always right. Wiki is widely known for errors. You should take everything you read with a grain of salt otherwise you might look very stupid. Wiki is not a GW bible so don't treat as such. 3.5 years of playing and you still come off as being very inexperienced. Using Wiki as your counter argument is full of fail. Anyone can create an account and edit anything they want. I could deliberately put false info just to prove a point. Then people like you would come along and believe what I write.

Fay Vert · Nov 13, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

I suggest some of you learn to read, and use a certain thing called Wiki !!! I`m sure they`ll be interested to learn of your re-working of the game mechanics.

Wiki is a wonderful and very large resource, can you please point out where on wiki we have missed?

@Orange Milk

Damn, I had one of those bows but didn't know what it was so I merched it

Grammar · Nov 14, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

You have 4 weapon slots.

There are obvious variances depending on build, location and what you're trying to accomplish, but certain generalizations can be made when it comes to bow string mods.

Typical bow ranger will look something like this:
Bow 1: Vamp (for damage)
Bow 2: Silencing (assuming you have a dazed skill, which the OP does)
Bow 3: Optional* (such as Poisonous if you carry Poison Tip Sig)
Bow 3: Pulling bow (Long or Flat bow, string can vary*, but I prefer Vamp, Silencing, or Poisonous, depending on build)

(*Never Sundering, because Sundering sucks)

The problem with Sundering is that it's redundant with Vamp. They both do the exact same thing (extra damage), but vamp does it significantly better. +5 armor ignoring damage on every single arrow absolutely destroys Sundering.

Grammar · Nov 14, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

please don't say after 3 1/2 years ur using a sundering hornbow with BHA on ur bar...?? Unless ur target is an immovable rock, chances are you would never hit anything. High arc + high arc = dodge city. Meth has broken it down, u can't really refute those arguments.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say, but it sounds like you're saying that BHA's flight time/arc is affected by bow type, which is most definitely not true.
BHA's flight time/arc is predetermined (set in stone, if you will) by the skill itself, and is absolutely unaffected by bow type.

Deepest apologies if I misunderstood you, however.

Amy Awien · Nov 14, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Going somewhat off topic, but the type of bow does have an influence on the arrow flighttime with BHA, though not by much and certainly not as much as was suggested. Can be tested with little trouble with a grabber like Fraps or Taksi.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 14, 2008, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Armor-ignoring damage > Armor Penetration.

Does your 20/20 Sundering Hornbow heal you for 5 every hit? Max Vampiric mods always heal more HP than they degen. IAS + Vampiric heals for even more. 20/20 modded weapons act like an unmodded weapon 80% of the time. 100% effect mods > 20% effect mods.

End.

Of.

Discussion.

The Meth · Nov 14, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

I suggest some of you learn to read, and use a certain thing called Wiki !!! I`m sure they`ll be interested to learn of your re-working of the game mechanics.

Yeah guys, please learn to use wiki! Lets look at what it says.

Well that settles it for me.

Fay Vert · Nov 16, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Its a shame when retards mess around with a wiki just to forward an argument in a forum.

Amy Awien · Nov 16, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

See: http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?...action=history

gw_poster · Nov 17, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say, but it sounds like you're saying that BHA's flight time/arc is affected by bow type, which is most definitely not true.
BHA's flight time/arc is predetermined (set in stone, if you will) by the skill itself, and is absolutely unaffected by bow type.

Deepest apologies if I misunderstood you, however.

high arc (from hornbow) + high arc (from bha) = dodge city (more chance of dodging) --> just saying ur increasing ur chance of a dodge because a hornbow is slower flight time and bha has a higher arc (slower flight time)

The Meth · Nov 17, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Its a shame when retards mess around with a wiki just to forward an argument in a forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

See: http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?...action=history

For those who don't understand, Amy is pointing out I didn't mess with wiki. I just took a picture of the preview of what the page would be with said changes. And it was perfectly in line with pointing out the irony of Balky saying to read wiki when the wiki had the perfectly correct information and he was disregarding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gw_poster

high arc (from hornbow) + high arc (from bha) = dodge city (more chance of dodging) --> just saying ur increasing ur chance of a dodge because a hornbow is slower flight time and bha has a higher arc (slower flight time)

The arc difference between bows doesn't have an effect on BHA as far as I can tell. BHA appears to set the arrow flight time to a specific amount (which is higher then any normal bow shot). If there is indeed a difference between the times BHA takes with different bows its very minor.